First Castings Kit?

[DR_G]

Hello again,

Further to my previous questions (and the extremely knowledgeabl
responses), a bit of practice, three books read and a little courage,
am now at a stage where I want to stop 'getting familiar' with my ML
and start to build something decent.

Could anyone reccomend a small steam engine kit of castings and part
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at th
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old singl
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over m
budget.

Am I looking for the impossible, or are there any nice looking engine
out there for a resonable price?

Regards,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Anonymous]

Could anyone reccomend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget.

The Stuart Turner (or is it just Stuart these days after business sell-off?)
V10 kit is the standard starter kit which will take you through all the
necessary beginner's operations. (including breaking off screw taps!)

There is an optional book but there are a few typos and omissions. Some
things you have to work out for yourself.

Try to join your local area's society of model engineers for then you
will find manyexperienced machinists to advise and help you.

The price for the starter castings of the V10 is only about £70.

[1501]

Post by Anonymous
The Stuart Turner (or is it just Stuart these days after business sell-off?)
V10 kit is the standard starter kit which will take you through all the
necessary beginner's operations. (including breaking off screw taps!)

And the mandatory crashing of saddle into headstock.

. . . .and the tee-shirt.

[dave sanderson]

Post by DR_G
Hello again,
Further to my previous questions (and the extremely knowledgeable
responses), a bit of practice, three books read and a little courage, I
am now at a stage where I want to stop 'getting familiar' with my ML7
and start to build something decent.
Could anyone reccomend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget.
Am I looking for the impossible, or are there any nice looking engines
out there for a resonable price?

With the current exchange rate look at PM research,
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=3
They will ship to the uk no problems, and were very helpful when I
ordered a no 3 kit from them.

Dave

[BRAD.]

I can well recommend kits from Greenweld that should be within your budget:
http://www.greenweld.co.uk/acatalog/Shop_Steam_74.html
A particular one that may be of interest is a Stirling Hot Air motor;
http://www.greenweld.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2egreenweld%2eco%2euk%2fcgi%2dbin%2fss000001%2epl%3fSS%3dSterling%26PR%3d%2d1%26TB%3dA%26SHOP%3d&WD=cdt0093&PN=Shop_Kits_72%2ehtml%23aCDT0093#aCDT0093
Although all these are 'classified' as kits, they still require a lot of
engineering skills and machining to complete.
Tom.

Post by DR_G
Hello again,
Further to my previous questions (and the extremely knowledgeable
responses), a bit of practice, three books read and a little courage, I
am now at a stage where I want to stop 'getting familiar' with my ML7
and start to build something decent.
Could anyone reccomend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget.
Am I looking for the impossible, or are there any nice looking engines
out there for a resonable price?

With the current exchange rate look at PM research,
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=3
They will ship to the uk no problems, and were very helpful when I
ordered a no 3 kit from them.

Dave

[Myford Matt]

Have you been to ST's website? They do several kits for £66+VAT an
postage. (S50, 10V, 10H). There is a book to accompany the 10V, whic
may make it an attractive proposition for you.

I can strongly recommend Hemingway - nice kits, nice people.

Mat

--
Myford Mat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Myford Matt's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=6619
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Norman Billingham]

Have you been to ST's website? They do several kits for £66+VAT and
postage. (S50, 10V, 10H). There is a book to accompany the 10V, which
may make it an attractive proposition for you.
I can strongly recommend Hemingway - nice kits, nice people.

I'll second the opinion on Hemingway - good stuff but not engines.



The standard "starter" is indeed the 10V but it's not as easy as it looks -
the parts are all small and fiddly and every mistake can cost you a new
casting.



How close to London are you? SM-EE does a six-Saturdays course on building
Tubal Cain's "Polly", which takes you through all the basic techniques
needed to build a small steam engine and boiler , with the advantage that
its all made from standard materials. You'd learn a lot more from Polly
than from a 10V. If you are interested, the details are at
http://www.sm-ee.co.uk/. Or you could build one on your own.

[Mike Hopkins]

In message <f9f898$g1s$***@south.jnrs.ja.net>, Norman Billingham
<***@sussex.ac.uk> writes

[snip]

Post by Norman Billingham
How close to London are you? SM-EE does a six-Saturdays course on building
Tubal Cain's "Polly", which takes you through all the basic techniques
needed to build a small steam engine and boiler , with the advantage that
its all made from standard materials. You'd learn a lot more from Polly
than from a 10V.

Agreed! I would even go so far as to suggest that you avoid castings
until you have sufficient experience to recognise, deal with and even
know when to reject a sub-standard casting. As well as "Polly" there
have been a number of good simple projects published in both 'Model
Engineer' and in 'Engineering in miniature'. The common denominator of
all is that they use standard bar and sheet stock rather than castings.

Above all, don't be too proud to choose something very, very simple. I
speak from experience having never cut metal before I started my Alice
in 1982. Only now (apart from the painting) is it nearing being
finished.

[Nick Mueller]

Post by Mike Hopkins
Agreed! I would even go so far as to suggest that you avoid castings
until you have sufficient experience to recognise, deal with and even
know when to reject a sub-standard casting.

But he would have to use castings to learn that. :-)

I too would start with an oscillating steam engine without castings. You
have enough chances to ruin something and to learn a lot.
I'd stay away from Stirling engines and flame lickers in the beginning. They
require some skill and precision and there is nothing more frustrating if
your first engine doesn't work.


Nick

[kstrauss]

There are a number of plans for engines that do not use castings at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/barstockengines/ (Yahoo barstockengines
group).
You will have to join the group to access the plans but email traffic
is not excessive and SPAM is quickly dealt with. Look in their "Files"
section.

[DR_G]

Post by kstrauss
There are a number of plans for engines that do not use castings at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/barstockengines/ (Yahoo barstockengines
group).
You will have to join the group to access the plans but email traffic
is not excessive and SPAM is quickly dealt with. Look in their "Files"
section.

Kstrauss,

Great group to join - thanks for the link. I subscribed to the group
and I like the look of the twin cylinder marine engine...Any comments


Regards,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Mike Hopkins]

In message <***@rcgroups.com>, DR_G <***@rcgroups.com>
writes concerning...

Post by kstrauss
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/barstockengines/ (Yahoo barstockengines
group).

Great group to join - thanks for the link. I subscribed to the group,
and I like the look of the twin cylinder marine engine...Any comments?

If you like the look of the twin cylinder marine engine then that is
perhaps *the* best reason for choosing it. Perhaps the next most
important factor is that once completed, you will have a choice of doing
something with it other than using it to decorate the mantelpiece. I
would rate 'level of difficulty' below either of the above.

Good luck.

[DR_G]

Post by Mike Hopkins
writes concerning...

Post by kstrauss
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/barstockengines/ (Yaho

barstockengines

Post by kstrauss
group).

Great group to join - thanks for the link. I subscribed to the group,
and I like the look of the twin cylinder marine engine...An

comments?
If you like the look of the twin cylinder marine engine then that is
perhaps *the* best reason for choosing it. Perhaps the next most
important factor is that once completed, you will have a choice o
doing
something with it other than using it to decorate the mantelpiece. I
would rate 'level of difficulty' below either of the above.
Good luck.
--
Mike Hopkins
CSME <http://www.cheltsme.org.uk>
5" gauge (2 1/2" scale) Alice class Hunslet

Mike,

I know where you're coming from: I also 'liked the look' of a 196
E-type Jaguar in several large boxes. *Eight* years of work later
drove it! You are right - there is no point building a very simpl
model that you don't really want to own at the end of the process, eve
if classed as a beginners model. That is only my humble opinion though!

Regards,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Anonymous]

Post by Norman Billingham
The standard "starter" is indeed the 10V but it's not as easy as it
looks - the parts are all small and fiddly and every mistake can cost you
a new casting.

Yes, that was a problem for me. My lathe had a chuck with
a 6" backplate.....it was difficult to hold some of the parts

[Peter]

See if you can borrow etc. one or both of these :-

ISBN 1854861042 : Building simple model steam engines : Tubal Cain

ISBN 1854861476 : " " Vol 2

Come to think of it, they're only £5 each from Amazon

All the best,
Peter W.

[DR_G]

Norman, Mike,

I am in Sheffield, nowhere near London thank God. In an ideal world
course like you mentioned would be perfect, but unfortunately I no
have a young family now, so Saturdays could get busy.

Regarding the plans and instructions with the Hemingway or Stuar
Turner 10V kits - how good are they? Are they step-by-step affair
showing what tooling you need or are they more of a 'turn this, mil
that' kind of thing?

I am used to building both plastic scale models (I used to build the
for a local model shop) and model gliders, so intricate work isn't
big deal. I've got plenty of patience, but as you say maybe a ver
simple model would be best...How about the Stuart Turner Oscillato
Engine at £34 +vat? Alternatively, does anyone have a source o
plans/instructions for a non-casting engine which I could build. I hav
found an excellent supplier of metal stock locally, who is very friendl
and knowledgeable about the machining of different metals, so I have
great source of cheap material.

Peter - I will look for the books, but I am reluctant to use Amazo
again after my copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' never 'turned up'.
bought it locally in the end.

Regards,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[dave sanderson]

Post by DR_G
Norman, Mike,
I am in Sheffield, nowhere near London thank God. In an ideal world a
course like you mentioned would be perfect, but unfortunately I now
have a young family now, so Saturdays could get busy.
Regarding the plans and instructions with the Hemingway or Stuart
Turner 10V kits - how good are they? Are they step-by-step affairs
showing what tooling you need or are they more of a 'turn this, mill
that' kind of thing?
I am used to building both plastic scale models (I used to build them
for a local model shop) and model gliders, so intricate work isn't a
big deal. I've got plenty of patience, but as you say maybe a very
simple model would be best...How about the Stuart Turner Oscillator
Engine at £34 +vat? Alternatively, does anyone have a source of
plans/instructions for a non-casting engine which I could build. I have
found an excellent supplier of metal stock locally, who is very friendly> and knowledgeable about the machining of different metals, so I have a
great source of cheap material.
Peter - I will look for the books, but I am reluctant to use Amazon
again after my copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' never 'turned up'. I
bought it locally in the end.
Regards,
Garth.

Garth,
look here:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=25037
a recent discussion on the same subject with some very useful links.
The turner kits come with a set of drawings and thats about it, but
you can get a book
to go with it. Im in the process of buiding a 10H from an incomplete
casting kit,
well actually just the bed plate and some optimism ;)
of course you could design your own oscilator/other engine, they are
quite simple
really, and when you think about what was achieved a hundred and fifty
odd years
ago it isnt any longer in the realm of rocket science, you can get
away with a lot of
sub optimalities and still have a cracking runner.
My first engine was built from some scrap printers for bar stokc, a
piece of channel
ally for the base and some luck: the eccentric was machined in my only
chuck (a 3 jaw)
by assembling it 'wrong' so jaws 1 and 3 were swapped. then the valve
throw was
designed based on this. Piston valve, but it seemed hard to do inlet
and exhaust, so I
drilled a hole at BDC for the exhaust, and timed the inlet to open
just before TDC,
bit like a 2 stroke. The little end was made from a piece of
paperclip, and the crankshaft
was turned offset as per the eccentric, stroke based on what I could
make rather than
a calculation....

The point is if you know the basics of an engine just try and make
one, worked for me
and that first oily rattly engine is one of my favorites.

hth,

Dave

[Richard]

I seem to recall MAP as it was then published some drawings for
non-castings model steam engines, certainly they did for model IC
engines. They maybe still available from Traplet or Nexus (which
aren't Nexus any longer I think, probably the shower who've trashed
ME) or possibly The X-list who took over the old Aeromodeller plans
when they were deleted.
.
I'll try to dig out the old catalogue and have a look.

Richard

Post by DR_G
Norman, Mike,
I am in Sheffield, nowhere near London thank God. In an ideal world a
course like you mentioned would be perfect, but unfortunately I now
have a young family now, so Saturdays could get busy.
Regarding the plans and instructions with the Hemingway or Stuart
Turner 10V kits - how good are they? Are they step-by-step affairs
showing what tooling you need or are they more of a 'turn this, mill
that' kind of thing?
I am used to building both plastic scale models (I used to build them
for a local model shop) and model gliders, so intricate work isn't a
big deal. I've got plenty of patience, but as you say maybe a very
simple model would be best...How about the Stuart Turner Oscillator
Engine at £34 +vat? Alternatively, does anyone have a source of
plans/instructions for a non-casting engine which I could build. I have
found an excellent supplier of metal stock locally, who is very friendly
and knowledgeable about the machining of different metals, so I have a
great source of cheap material.
Peter - I will look for the books, but I am reluctant to use Amazon
again after my copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' never 'turned up'. I
bought it locally in the end.
Regards,
Garth.

[Norman Billingham]

Post by DR_G
Norman, Mike,
I am in Sheffield, nowhere near London thank God. In an ideal world a
course like you mentioned would be perfect, but unfortunately I now
have a young family now, so Saturdays could get busy.
Regarding the plans and instructions with the Hemingway or Stuart
Turner 10V kits - how good are they? Are they step-by-step affairs
showing what tooling you need or are they more of a 'turn this, mill
that' kind of thing?

All Hemingway kits come with an excellent set of drawings. Some (e.g. the
knurling tool) with instructions - which are usually reprints of articles
from ME or MEW.

ST kits come with a set of drawings and that's all. For the 10V there is a
book available but its old and a number of things have changed - in
particular the crankshaft no longer comes as a single forging - you have to
build it up from bits of steel.

Neither comes with any instructions on how to machine - its assumed you
know. The ST book is more about how to hold castings etc for machining.

When SMEE started to run courses, the original intention was to build the ST
oscillator - abandoned in favour of Polly for the two reasons I already
gave - you can make more mistakes more cheaply and you learn far more
techniques. The ST engines are exercises in machining and fitting - Polly
and her ilk involve a lot more techniques.

Polly is the first engine in Tubal Cain's first book. Lots of detailed
instructions and much easier if you start with a piece of copper tube for
the boiler rather than trying to "roll your own".

Have fun!

Norman

[Nick Mueller]

Post by DR_G
Peter - I will look for the books, but I am reluctant to use Amazon
again after my copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' never 'turned up'. I
bought it locally in the end.

I think you could find the books (or similar ones) at Camden Books. Out of
my head, the URL is www.camdenmin.co.uk


Nick

[Nigel Cliffe]

Post by DR_G
Norman, Mike,
I am in Sheffield, nowhere near London thank God. In an ideal world a
course like you mentioned would be perfect, but unfortunately I now
have a young family now, so Saturdays could get busy.
Regarding the plans and instructions with the Hemingway or Stuart
Turner 10V kits - how good are they? Are they step-by-step affairs
showing what tooling you need or are they more of a 'turn this, mill
that' kind of thing?

There's a book on the 10V which goes through how to make it. The drawings
supplied with the kit were only partly useful.

Building a Vertical Steam Engine, ISBN 1857610962


I built a 10V using a Cowell lathe, which is a little on the small side for
the job, but I managed eventually. I re-made the connecting rod to my own
design rather than using the casting (I really didn't get on with that bit).

Post by DR_G
.How about the Stuart Turner Oscillator
Engine at £34 +vat? Alternatively, does anyone have a source of
plans/instructions for a non-casting engine which I could build.

There are various books which have designs for engines which can be made
from bar-stock. So I'd not bother with castings for an oscillating engine.
Example book would be Stan Bray, Simple Workshop Projects.

Post by DR_G
Peter - I will look for the books, but I am reluctant to use Amazon
again after my copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' never 'turned up'. I
bought it locally in the end.

Try a specialist like Camden books, and staff in the UK who you can ring in
the unlikely event of something going wrong.
They will have many current titles on model engineering.


- Nigel

[Chris Edwards]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:59:06 +0100, "Peter"

Post by Peter
See if you can borrow etc. one or both of these :-
ISBN 1854861042 : Building simple model steam engines : Tubal Cain
ISBN 1854861476 : " " Vol 2
Come to think of it, they're only £5 each from Amazon
All the best,
Peter W.

Garth

Going back to your original question, the nub of which I quote here

"Could anyone recommend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget."

The advice which Peter Whillance offers can't be bettered, except
that *no* castings are involved. The whole point of Tubal Cain's books was
to encourage beginners and they do exactly that. The end product is a
simple working steam engine but to get there you will have been taken step
by detailed step through every process of manufacture from marking out to

Didn't you tell us at some stage in the not too distant past that
you had a doctorate in materials science or some other metrological
discipline? Is there no 'practical' at uni any more?

I have both of the books Peter mentions and if you send me your
address off list I'll make you a gift of them. Who knows, we may even
enthuse your children as well!


--

Chris Edwards (in deepest Dorset) "....there *must* be an easier way!"

[DR_G]

Post by Chris Edwards
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:59:06 +0100, "Peter"

Post by Peter
See if you can borrow etc. one or both of these :-
ISBN 1854861042 : Building simple model steam engines : Tuba

Cain

Post by Peter
ISBN 1854861476 : " " Vol 2
Come to think of it, they're only £5 each from Amazon
All the best,
Peter W.

Garth
Going back to your original question, the nub of which I quote here
"Could anyone recommend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget."
The advice which Peter Whillance offers can't be bettered, except
that *no* castings are involved. The whole point of Tubal Cain's book
was
to encourage beginners and they do exactly that. The end product is a
simple working steam engine but to get there you will have been take
step
by detailed step through every process of manufacture from marking ou
to
Didn't you tell us at some stage in the not too distant past that
you had a doctorate in materials science or some other metrological
discipline? Is there no 'practical' at uni any more?
I have both of the books Peter mentions and if you send me your
address off list I'll make you a gift of them. Who knows, we may even
enthuse your children as well!
--
Chris Edwards (in deepest Dorset) "....there *must* be an easie
way!"

Chris,

Thank you, that is a very kind offer, but I would definitely send yo
something for the books. I cannot figure out how to contact yo
off-list because you don't appear to be registered. If you email me a
***@yahoo.com we could arrange something off-line.

My son is only 2 weeks old, so he has a bit of time before starting o
the lathe!

I have a PhD in ultrasonic machining of ceramic composites. I did
practical engineering course at university (turning, milling etc.), an
got a distinction for the course, but model engineering is a totall
different proposition! I am basically still at the bottom of a stee
learning curve. I gather that most of the machine tools at th
university have now been sold, to make way for coputer science and th
like. Practical engineering is definitely on its way out. Having sai
that, I currently work with Boeing at the AMRC in Sheffield
http://www.amrc.co.uk/ ), and the machining we do here is state of th
art stuff. I work in the customised assembly division though! I'm sur
the guys in the machining dynamics division could knock out a stea
engine in a matter of hours on a Mori-seki, Starrag or Cincinnati, o
even build it up from thin air (almost).

Regards,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Chris Edwards]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 07:19:34 -0500, DR_G <***@rcgroups.com> wrote:

If you email me at
Done. However, I'm surprised my e-mail address doesn't show up at
your end. Put a fiver in the next Marie Curie tin you see and I'll be well
rewarded.
--

Chris Edwards (in deepest Dorset) "....there *must* be an easier way!"

[DR_G]

Post by Chris Edwards
If you email me at
... Put a fiver in the next Marie Curie tin you see and I'll be well
rewarded.
--
Chris Edwards (in deepest Dorset) "....there *must* be an easie
way!"

Chris,

I am more than happy to donate a fiver - in addition to my offlin
suggestion - you have a deal!

Cheers,

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Mike Hopkins]

In message <***@rcgroups.com>, DR_G <***@rcgroups.com>
writes

[snip]

Practical engineering is definitely on its way out. Having said
that, I currently work with Boeing at the AMRC in Sheffield (
http://www.amrc.co.uk/ ), and the machining we do here is state of the
art stuff. I work in the customised assembly division though! I'm sure
the guys in the machining dynamics division could knock out a steam
engine in a matter of hours on a Mori-seki, Starrag or Cincinnati, or
even build it up from thin air (almost).

There is a guy in the 2 1/2" gauge model rail society who appears to be
doing just that!

[Steve W]

Post by Peter
See if you can borrow etc. one or both of these :-
ISBN 1854861042 : Building simple model steam engines : Tubal Cain
ISBN 1854861476 : " " Vol 2
Come to think of it, they're only £5 each from Amazon
All the best,
Peter W.

These are great books, if you want to do steam. Further, if you look at
the steam crane model, there is enough detail to make the basic oscillator
engine from barstock, I fabbed one cylinder and piston&rod. The castings
are very expensive now (£56). I'm voting with the "build from barstock"
guys.

If you really want to build a V10 or S50, make sure you understand what
tooling you will need and what the full set of components will cost - you
don't get oilers for example in the castings kit which ads another £10 or
there abouts or a displacement valve - better to decide before you buy if
you want one or not. They are £30+

Steve

[Cheshire Steve]

Post by DR_G
Hello again,
Further to my previous questions (and the extremely knowledgeable
responses), a bit of practice, three books read and a little courage, I
am now at a stage where I want to stop 'getting familiar' with my ML7
and start to build something decent.
Could anyone reccomend a small steam engine kit of castings and parts
which would be a good start in model engineering? I was looking at the
Stuart Turner range, but they are very expensive - an old single
cylinder castings kit went for £170 on EBay recently. This is over my
budget.
Am I looking for the impossible, or are there any nice looking engines
out there for a resonable price?
Regards,
Garth.
--
DR_G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=111684
View this thread:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725365

In much the same position, I dropped a vague hint, and was given a kit
last Christmas - so the gauntlet was thrown down - no choice involved.
It was the Stuart V-twin oscillator (about £66), and it took me 6
months to build (maybe 20 minutes a day). The cost of the model is
only part of it as you find you need taps and dies and collets, but I
learned a great deal (including not to trust drawings - as there were
3 mistakes).

I am not sure that an oscillator is the right way to go, but start
with something simple. Just making a true cylinder and fitting a
piston can be quite an exercise. I was amazed how much time I spent
making a fairly simple model, but it was time well spent.

Steve

[Charles Lamont]

Post by Cheshire Steve
The cost of the model is
only part of it as you find you need taps and dies and collets

You do not need collets.

[Mike Hopkins]

Post by Charles Lamont
You do not need collets.

.... if you have a four jaw chuck. Or am I missing something?

[DR_G]

Collets for milling presumably?

Garth

--
DR_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DR_G's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=11168
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72536

[Charles Lamont]

Post by Mike Hopkins

Post by Charles Lamont
You do not need collets.

.... if you have a four jaw chuck. Or am I missing something?

Well, a 4-jaw chuck is a 'must have'.

[Nigel Cliffe]

Post by Mike Hopkins

Post by Charles Lamont
You do not need collets.

.... if you have a four jaw chuck. Or am I missing something?

You don't need collets for a 10V. I know, I built one without. I did have
both a 4-jaw independent, and a 3-jaw self-centering.

I did make custom holders for some parts; simple cylinders of material held
in chuck, then bore to diameter, mark where no-1 jaw of the 3 jaw sits, then
slit longitudinally. This allows re-centering of work quite easily.


I now have some collets. Its a lot quicker and easier.


- Nigel

[Cheshire Steve]

Post by Charles Lamont

Post by Cheshire Steve
The cost of the model is
only part of it as you find you need taps and dies and collets

You do not need collets.
--
Charles Lamont

I am amazed you say that. I wish I had bought my ER25 collet set ages
ago. I had been struggling to hold and face tiny little spring seats
in my 3-jaw without overtightening and marking them. The collets
allowed me to grip them tightly without damage. They were also useful
to hold 1/8th bar when threading it - less risk of it turning and
being marked. They are so good at holding small work that I think
anyone doing small scale modelling should consider getting a set. They
are of course excellent for holding end mills or slot drills in the
lathe - when using a normal chuck I have found the cutters can get
drawn into the work - I have messed up several items that way.

Steve

[Nick Mueller]

Post by Cheshire Steve
I am amazed you say that. I wish I had bought my ER25 collet set ages
ago.

Collets are great. But if you are on a low budget, you can make your own to
go into the 3 jaw chuck. A bar, bored to the required size and slitting on
one side.
When I started with that stupid waste of time, I only had a 3 jaw chuck and
made really tiny parts. If you plan ahead, most parts can be done from the
bar without re-chucking.

Nick

[Charles Lamont]

Post by Cheshire Steve

Post by Charles Lamont
You do not need collets.
Charles Lamont

I am amazed you say that. I wish I had bought my ER25 collet set ages
ago. I had been struggling to hold and face tiny little spring seats
in my 3-jaw without overtightening and marking them. The collets
allowed me to grip them tightly without damage. They were also useful
to hold 1/8th bar when threading it - less risk of it turning and
being marked. They are so good at holding small work that I think
anyone doing small scale modelling should consider getting a set. They
are of course excellent for holding end mills or slot drills in the
lathe - when using a normal chuck I have found the cutters can get
drawn into the work - I have messed up several items that way.

I have used a lathe for nearly 40 years. Last year I also bought a set
of ER25 collets. They are useful, especially as you say, for holding
milling cutters, but they are by no means essential, and a beginner on a
limited budget should have much higher priorities.

Lots of jobs, especially second operation, are often better done by
making a chucking piece of some kind, for example a stub mandrel,
in-situ for the job in hand.

[Cheshire Steve]

Post by Charles Lamont

Post by Cheshire Steve

Post by Charles Lamont
You do not need collets.
Charles Lamont

I am amazed you say that. I wish I had bought my ER25 collet set ages
ago. I had been struggling to hold and face tiny little spring seats
in my 3-jaw without overtightening and marking them. The collets
allowed me to grip them tightly without damage. They were also useful
to hold 1/8th bar when threading it - less risk of it turning and
being marked. They are so good at holding small work that I think
anyone doing small scale modelling should consider getting a set. They
are of course excellent for holding end mills or slot drills in the
lathe - when using a normal chuck I have found the cutters can get
drawn into the work - I have messed up several items that way.

I have used a lathe for nearly 40 years. Last year I also bought a set
of ER25 collets. They are useful, especially as you say, for holding
milling cutters, but they are by no means essential, and a beginner on a
limited budget should have much higher priorities.
Lots of jobs, especially second operation, are often better done by
making a chucking piece of some kind, for example a stub mandrel,
in-situ for the job in hand.
--
Charles Lamont

Charles,

Without the benefit of your experience or a decent apprenticeship, its
surprising how tricky it is to make a model from drawings. The Stuart
Turner taught me to double check due to drawing mistakes, but left me
in deep water when it came to such things as getting a true brass
cylinder with a fine finish and then fitting a piston to it. One score
from a reamer and you are in trouble (I should probably have reamed
and then drilled the steam holes, and then reamed again to tidy up).
There are also many tricks about work holding that come with
experience, and order of operations. When faced with a drawing its
easy to do the rights things in the wrong order and have a big holding
problem.

I haven't found a club nearby, so have had to use a lot of trial and
error (especially using a rough old 1950s Winfield lathe). Every
success is very pleasant, every failure is something to learn from,
but repeated failure can really put you off. Thats why it is so nice
that the pleas for help are well responded to on this group. I still
have problems with simple things, like clearance for internal boring
tools, but I am bloody minded and so long as I know it can be done, I
will figure out how - but it would be a lot quicker if someone like
you was next door to show me how.

And of course, you are right - its a fairly quick job to make your own
collets in brass to be held in the 3-jaw. I have some, but I still
think the ER25s are the best things I have bought in some time, but a
bit pricey I admit. One of these days I dream of a milling machine -
and they ARE pricey (especially when you but the extra bits you find
you need).

Steve

[Richard]

I know modern machines are a lot cheaper than the used to be, but as a
teenager I built a Stuart 10A and finished a Basset Lowke 1/2" Burrel
on a 1940's Portass with no more than a 3 jaw chuck and a face plate.
Collets and 4 jaw chucks were for those people who could afford to buy
a ready made model in the first place. Well not quite, but whilst
desirable they're definitely not 'necessary' items.

With so much 'stuff' available these days at pretty affordable prices,
people seem to be carried away by the idea that it's all mandatory -
it isn't.

Have some fun and don't worry too much about perfection in the first
instance. A working steam model can be achieved with a little
inginuity and very rudimentary machinery. Victorian engineers built an
empire without the aid of a computer or a CNC machine.

Richard

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 00:54:14 +0100, Charles Lamont

Post by Charles Lamont

Post by Cheshire Steve
The cost of the model is
only part of it as you find you need taps and dies and collets

You do not need collets.

[John Stevenson]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:40:41 +0100, Richard

Post by Richard
I know modern machines are a lot cheaper than the used to be, but as a
teenager I built a Stuart 10A and finished a Basset Lowke 1/2" Burrel
on a 1940's Portass with no more than a 3 jaw chuck and a face plate.
Collets and 4 jaw chucks were for those people who could afford to buy
a ready made model in the first place. Well not quite, but whilst
desirable they're definitely not 'necessary' items.
With so much 'stuff' available these days at pretty affordable prices,
people seem to be carried away by the idea that it's all mandatory -
it isn't.
Have some fun and don't worry too much about perfection in the first
instance. A working steam model can be achieved with a little
inginuity and very rudimentary machinery. Victorian engineers built an
empire without the aid of a computer or a CNC machine.
Richard

Too right.
Here's one built with a pistol drill and a soldering iron.

.
--
Regards,

John Stevenson
Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-
http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/

[Nick Mueller]

Post by Richard
Have some fun and don't worry too much about perfection in the first
instance. A working steam model can be achieved with a little
inginuity and very rudimentary machinery. Victorian engineers built an
empire without the aid of a computer or a CNC machine.

Take this as a reference for *very* basic tooling, yet nice looking and
working engines.
<http://www.royuk.co.uk/steam_engines.htm>


Nick