Wicksteed power hacksaw

[Julian]

I rescued one today, it was going into the skip.

I've been looking around it and it seems in very good order, a 2 horse 3
phase motor that stands testing with my AVO, and nice unworn bearings and
slideways. The oil pump lifts the arm if I spin the flywheel by hand and the
'creep' facility seems fine too. Tomorrow I'm off to purchase a 3 phase
socket and try it out!

However the coolant pump is a bit of a mystery to be. There's a link from
the crank eccentric to the pump piston that is AWOL. I can make one easily,
but wonder if it should maybe be adjustable so as to vary coolant quantity?
I wish I could take a look at a genuine one.

Also, I cant work out how the pump should work. There seems to be a total
absence of valves around the pump unit,(incorporated into the bottom of the
iron casting that is the coolant tank) and at the delivery end there appears
to be one ball bearing that has an inverted cup sitting on it. Does anyone
have any experience with these things and can suggest how it's supposed to
work? There seems very little stuff on the www about donkey saws, this
should be a very useful little (well about 1/2 ton!) tool when it's up and
running.

Julian.

[Christopher Tidy]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Julian
I rescued one today, it was going into the skip.
I've been looking around it and it seems in very good order, a 2 horse
3 phase motor that stands testing with my AVO, and nice unworn
bearings and slideways. The oil pump lifts the arm if I spin the
flywheel by hand and the 'creep' facility seems fine too. Tomorrow I'm
off to purchase a 3 phase socket and try it out!
However the coolant pump is a bit of a mystery to be. There's a link
from the crank eccentric to the pump piston that is AWOL. I can make
one easily, but wonder if it should maybe be adjustable so as to vary
coolant quantity? I wish I could take a look at a genuine one.
Also, I cant work out how the pump should work. There seems to be a
total absence of valves around the pump unit,(incorporated into the
bottom of the iron casting that is the coolant tank) and at the
delivery end there appears to be one ball bearing that has an inverted
cup sitting on it. Does anyone have any experience with these things
and can suggest how it's supposed to work? There seems very little
stuff on the www about donkey saws, this should be a very useful
little (well about 1/2 ton!) tool when it's up and running.

Are you sure that the part you're talking about is the coolant pump? I
have a Qualters & Smith power hacksaw, which I believe is fairly
similar. Your description sounds much more like the hydraulic oil pump
which raises and lowers the bowslide. Every time the pump's piston is
pushed into the cylinder, it raises the bowslide slightly. This should
happen on the return stroke. How quickly the bowslide falls depends on
the rate of leakage that you control using a valve. If it's the
hydraulic oil pump which is incomplete, the machine won't function
without it.

Just realised I made a mistake here. My hacksaw cuts on the return
stroke and lifts on the forward stroke. Not sure why I remembered wrong,
but I thought I'd correct myself, even if it's a month or so late.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Julian]

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Julian
I rescued one today, it was going into the skip.
I've been looking around it and it seems in very good order, a 2 horse 3
phase motor that stands testing with my AVO, and nice unworn bearings
and slideways. The oil pump lifts the arm if I spin the flywheel by hand
and the 'creep' facility seems fine too. Tomorrow I'm off to purchase a
3 phase socket and try it out!
However the coolant pump is a bit of a mystery to be. There's a link
from the crank eccentric to the pump piston that is AWOL. I can make one
easily, but wonder if it should maybe be adjustable so as to vary
coolant quantity? I wish I could take a look at a genuine one.
Also, I cant work out how the pump should work. There seems to be a
total absence of valves around the pump unit,(incorporated into the
bottom of the iron casting that is the coolant tank) and at the delivery
end there appears to be one ball bearing that has an inverted cup
sitting on it. Does anyone have any experience with these things and can
suggest how it's supposed to work? There seems very little stuff on the
www about donkey saws, this should be a very useful little (well about
1/2 ton!) tool when it's up and running.

Are you sure that the part you're talking about is the coolant pump? I
have a Qualters & Smith power hacksaw, which I believe is fairly similar.
Your description sounds much more like the hydraulic oil pump which
raises and lowers the bowslide. Every time the pump's piston is pushed
into the cylinder, it raises the bowslide slightly. This should happen on
the return stroke. How quickly the bowslide falls depends on the rate of
leakage that you control using a valve. If it's the hydraulic oil pump
which is incomplete, the machine won't function without it.

Just realised I made a mistake here. My hacksaw cuts on the return stroke
and lifts on the forward stroke. Not sure why I remembered wrong, but I
thought I'd correct myself, even if it's a month or so late.

I've just replied to another chap with a mechanical saw. My Wicksteed cuts
on the push stroke. On the return stroke the blade is lifted by the
hydraulics, trying to make it cut on the return would fail. As far as I can
remember the saws in the metalwork classroom (when I was as school) all cut
on the push. (could have memory failure though)

Thanks for the reply though.

Julian.

[Julian]

I did a little video clip on my phone of it sawing through a chunk of
channel section.

It sounds like the big-end is knocking on the video, it must be a
perculiarity of the phone microphone because it doesn't sound half as bad in
the flesh. It's in top speed, the blade has become a little blunt now
because I've done dozens of cuts with it.

One of our collies comes to have a look towards the end - apologies!

Julian.

[Austin Shackles]

Post by Julian
I did a little video clip on my phone of it sawing through a chunk of
channel section.
It sounds like the big-end is knocking on the video, it must be a
perculiarity of the phone microphone because it doesn't sound half as bad in
the flesh. It's in top speed, the blade has become a little blunt now
because I've done dozens of cuts with it.
One of our collies comes to have a look towards the end - apologies!
http://youtu.be/4OAkfQSKwls

that's an impressively crappy quality video, gotta say :)

Saw's going well though.

[Julian]

Post by Austin Shackles

Post by Julian
I did a little video clip on my phone of it sawing through a chunk of
channel section.
It sounds like the big-end is knocking on the video, it must be a
perculiarity of the phone microphone because it doesn't sound half as bad in
the flesh. It's in top speed, the blade has become a little blunt now
because I've done dozens of cuts with it.
One of our collies comes to have a look towards the end - apologies!
http://youtu.be/4OAkfQSKwls

that's an impressively crappy quality video, gotta say :)

I especially crapified it just for you! It's done with a £60 mobile phone
from Argos, and a lens that gets covered in dust from my overalls pocket.
:-)

Post by Austin Shackles
Saw's going well though.

Yes it's not bad at all, essentially saved from the tip - what a wasteful
society we live in today. I bet a small workshop in Pakistan or India would
be absolutely delighted to own a machine like this and use it everyday....

Julian.

[Austin Shackles]

Post by Julian
Yes it's not bad at all, essentially saved from the tip - what a wasteful
society we live in today. I bet a small workshop in Pakistan or India would
be absolutely delighted to own a machine like this and use it everyday....

yeah. I'd have one but it'd hardly get used, really, as I don't do much of
that kind of cutting. Plasma cutter is the next thing on my list, when I
can find a cheap one.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
I did a little video clip on my phone of it sawing through a chunk of
channel section.
It sounds like the big-end is knocking on the video, it must be a
perculiarity of the phone microphone because it doesn't sound half as bad in
the flesh. It's in top speed, the blade has become a little blunt now
because I've done dozens of cuts with it.

Mine makes the same knocking noise. I eventually tracked the noise down
to the slight lift which is given by the hydraulics once per cycle
(during the "push" stroke on a Qualters & Smith, or the "draw" stroke on
the Wicksteed, it would seem). I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Chris

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
I've just replied to another chap with a mechanical saw. My Wicksteed cuts
on the push stroke. On the return stroke the blade is lifted by the
hydraulics, trying to make it cut on the return would fail. As far as I can
remember the saws in the metalwork classroom (when I was as school) all cut
on the push. (could have memory failure though)

The funny thing is, I thought the same. But when I was working on my
saw, I noticed that the blade cuts on the draw stroke. So I checked the
manual in case I'd put the blade in the wrong way round, and no, the
manual confirms that it should cut on the draw stroke.

So it seems there's variation between manufacturers.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
I rescued one today, it was going into the skip.
I've been looking around it and it seems in very good order, a 2 horse 3
phase motor that stands testing with my AVO, and nice unworn bearings and
slideways. The oil pump lifts the arm if I spin the flywheel by hand and the
'creep' facility seems fine too. Tomorrow I'm off to purchase a 3 phase
socket and try it out!
However the coolant pump is a bit of a mystery to be. There's a link from
the crank eccentric to the pump piston that is AWOL. I can make one easily,
but wonder if it should maybe be adjustable so as to vary coolant quantity?
I wish I could take a look at a genuine one.
Also, I cant work out how the pump should work. There seems to be a total
absence of valves around the pump unit,(incorporated into the bottom of the
iron casting that is the coolant tank) and at the delivery end there appears
to be one ball bearing that has an inverted cup sitting on it. Does anyone
have any experience with these things and can suggest how it's supposed to
work? There seems very little stuff on the www about donkey saws, this
should be a very useful little (well about 1/2 ton!) tool when it's up and
running.

Sorry, I skipped over the first part of your post. Obviously it's not
the hydraulic oil pump. My apologies. I'm tired...

The Qualters & Smith uses a little vane or gear pump for coolant. It
sounds like the Wicksteed pump is rather different.

Is your Wicksteed the one with the rounded front end? Glad you rescued
it. Most of the old power hacksaws are great machines.

Chris

[Julian]

Post by Julian
I rescued one today, it was going into the skip.
I've been looking around it and it seems in very good order, a 2 horse 3
phase motor that stands testing with my AVO, and nice unworn bearings and
slideways. The oil pump lifts the arm if I spin the flywheel by hand and
the 'creep' facility seems fine too. Tomorrow I'm off to purchase a 3
phase socket and try it out!
However the coolant pump is a bit of a mystery to be. There's a link from
the crank eccentric to the pump piston that is AWOL. I can make one
easily, but wonder if it should maybe be adjustable so as to vary coolant
quantity? I wish I could take a look at a genuine one.
Also, I cant work out how the pump should work. There seems to be a total
absence of valves around the pump unit,(incorporated into the bottom of
the iron casting that is the coolant tank) and at the delivery end there
appears to be one ball bearing that has an inverted cup sitting on it.
Does anyone have any experience with these things and can suggest how
it's supposed to work? There seems very little stuff on the www about
donkey saws, this should be a very useful little (well about 1/2 ton!)
tool when it's up and running.

Sorry, I skipped over the first part of your post. Obviously it's not the
hydraulic oil pump. My apologies. I'm tired...
The Qualters & Smith uses a little vane or gear pump for coolant. It
sounds like the Wicksteed pump is rather different.
Is your Wicksteed the one with the rounded front end? Glad you rescued it.
Most of the old power hacksaws are great machines.

Thanks for the reply.

It has a hydraulic piston pump with two pistons, one big one small. One
seems to provide the 'lift' for the return stroke and the other seems to be
the one that powers the ''raise'' facility after cutting. I had to rebuild
this pump because it was full of cack and not working well. It's now working
perfectly and the saw blasts through RSJ material in double time. The two
horse motor is a huge thing for its power - must be very old, but the
machine is a brilliant bit of kit....

I'm now struggling with the coolant pump. As previously stated it is a
piston pump driven by an eccentric on the end of the ''crankshaft.'' I
machined up a bit of threaded bar to drive the piston from the eccentric and
now when it pumps it tries to rival Niagara Falls and swamps the delivery
cup and flex pipe. There must be a mechanism to regulate flow - it's not in
the delivery system because that is intact, so I'm thinking that there must
have been a mechanism to regulate piston travel?

Is anyone familiar with my old Wisksteed saw (weighs about 1/2ton) maybe has
one lying around or knows of any machine shops or suppliers that would be
happy for me to come along and take a look?

Cheers Julian.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
Thanks for the reply.

Sorry once again for the response I gave last night. I was tired and
hurrying.

Post by Julian
It has a hydraulic piston pump with two pistons, one big one small. One
seems to provide the 'lift' for the return stroke and the other seems to be
the one that powers the ''raise'' facility after cutting. I had to rebuild
this pump because it was full of cack and not working well. It's now working
perfectly and the saw blasts through RSJ material in double time. The two
horse motor is a huge thing for its power - must be very old, but the
machine is a brilliant bit of kit....

It sounds like the Wicksteed hydraulic pump is somewhat different to the
Qualters & Smith pump. The Qualters & Smith pump has one piston and a
valve (which is part of the piston which lifts the bowslide) which
closes automatically when the bowslide reaches its lowest position.

When I was searching for a power hacksaw, I was told by a machine tool
dealer that the Wicksteed and Qualters & Smith machines were of a
similar quality, but that he thought the Wicksteed had the better
hydraulics and the Qualters & Smith the better bow.

The Qualters & Smith also has a two-speed motor, which is why the motor
is huge. I'm not sure if the Wicksteed motor is the same.

One thing to watch with the hydraulics is to make sure that the oil in
the cylinder is of the right viscosity. My machine kept breaking blades
until I discovered that the bowslide was falling too quickly because the
oil wasn't viscous enough. It needs ISO 150 oil.

Post by Julian
I'm now struggling with the coolant pump. As previously stated it is a
piston pump driven by an eccentric on the end of the ''crankshaft.'' I
machined up a bit of threaded bar to drive the piston from the eccentric and
now when it pumps it tries to rival Niagara Falls and swamps the delivery
cup and flex pipe. There must be a mechanism to regulate flow - it's not in
the delivery system because that is intact, so I'm thinking that there must
have been a mechanism to regulate piston travel?

I've been thinking about your question today and the only way I can see
to vary piston travel is to vary the eccentricity of the cam. The piston
travel will be the same even if you change the length of the piston or
connecting rod. Is there any way of changing the eccentricity of the cam?

If not, the "Niagara Falls" situation may be the way it's intended to
operate. But it's difficult to judge without seeing it.

Post by Julian
Is anyone familiar with my old Wisksteed saw (weighs about 1/2ton) maybe has
one lying around or knows of any machine shops or suppliers that would be
happy for me to come along and take a look?

I'm intimately familiar with the Qualters & Smith hacksaw, but not with
the Wicksteed. Is there any trace of the Wicksteed company to be found
online? I found out that Qualters & Smith had become Birkett Cutmaster,
and they sent me a very useful manual for my saw.

There were also at least three different Wicksteed hacksaws produced.
Early machines had the front end supported on two legs. Later machines
had a rounded front end. And the latest machines I've seen had a very
angular appearance. What cutting capacity is your machine?

I did save a large number of pictures of power hacksaws while I was
looking for one. I don't think they'll show the part you're interested
in clearly, but if you want them, just let me know.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Julian]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Julian]

I uploaded a few pictures here:

http://photobucket.com/Wicksteed_hacksaw

It looks like the vice opens up to about 8'' so I'm guessing that is the
machine's capacity.

I'm particularly interested in comments regarding the coolant pump
arrangement. I made a link from the eccentric to the piston with some
threaded bar. Coolant delivery is far too much such that it floods the
delivery upper chamber and cup and knocks the upturned valve cup off it's
seat. Ideally I need to look at an original machine to see Wicksteed's
arangement and how delivery was controlled.

Cheers Julian.

[Adrian Godwin]

Post by Julian
I'm particularly interested in comments regarding the coolant pump
arrangement. I made a link from the eccentric to the piston with some
threaded bar. Coolant delivery is far too much such that it floods the
delivery upper chamber and cup and knocks the upturned valve cup off it's
seat. Ideally I need to look at an original machine to see Wicksteed's
arangement and how delivery was controlled.

I haven't seen one of these before (mine is a much smaller rapidor) but the
angled pushrod 'looks' all wrong. Is there an anchor point at the same height
as the eccentric but further along the machine ? Maybe the eccentric should
move a roughly horizontal bar, and the pushrod couple to it vertically. So the
pushrod movement would be reduced in proportion to the coupling point's
position on that bar.

-adrian

[Julian]

Post by Adrian Godwin

Post by Julian
I'm particularly interested in comments regarding the coolant pump
arrangement. I made a link from the eccentric to the piston with some
threaded bar. Coolant delivery is far too much such that it floods the
delivery upper chamber and cup and knocks the upturned valve cup off it's
seat. Ideally I need to look at an original machine to see Wicksteed's
arangement and how delivery was controlled.

I haven't seen one of these before (mine is a much smaller rapidor) but the
angled pushrod 'looks' all wrong. Is there an anchor point at the same height
as the eccentric but further along the machine ? Maybe the eccentric should
move a roughly horizontal bar, and the pushrod couple to it vertically. So the
pushrod movement would be reduced in proportion to the coupling point's
position on that bar.

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure because the pump piston bore is
angled towards the eccentric - If the pushrod was vertical it would foul on
the piston internally. Thanks for the thought though.

At the moment I'm working on the manufacture of a pushrod with a ''pogo
stick'' portion in the middle - with a suitable spring I'm of the opinion
that I can remove some of the travel from the piston.

Julian.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
http://photobucket.com/Wicksteed_hacksaw
It looks like the vice opens up to about 8'' so I'm guessing that is the
machine's capacity.

Yes, it's the biggest piece of round stock that you can get in the vice
(you can usually cut a larger piece of round stock than rectangular).

Post by Julian
I'm particularly interested in comments regarding the coolant pump
arrangement. I made a link from the eccentric to the piston with some
threaded bar. Coolant delivery is far too much such that it floods the
delivery upper chamber and cup and knocks the upturned valve cup off it's
seat. Ideally I need to look at an original machine to see Wicksteed's
arangement and how delivery was controlled.

As far as I can tell from the pictures I have, your coolant delivery
system, including the cups, is original. I presume the cups are intended
to even out the flow, so that the coolant isn't supplied in a series of
squirts.

In all but one of the pictures I have, the pump connecting rod is
missing. Which suggests that perhaps it wasn't the best part of the
design. But I've got one picture showing the connecting rod, and it
looks like you've got it pretty much right. Here's the picture:

Loading Image...

Best wishes,

Chris

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Christopher Tidy
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/wicksteed.jpg

Looking at that picture more closely I notice what look like tiny oil
pipes on the bowslide. Presumably there's an oil pump somewhere in the
machine?

Chris

[Julian]

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Christopher Tidy
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/wicksteed.jpg

Looking at that picture more closely I notice what look like tiny oil
pipes on the bowslide. Presumably there's an oil pump somewhere in the
machine?

That picture of yours either shows the ''posh'' version of my model or maybe
a slightly later one, it seems to have an ''autolube'' system similar to a
truck chassis. My saw just has oil holes for an oil can all with nice spring
loaded lids.

Thanks for the picture, it's certainly the best one that I've seen so far on
the www and shows the coolant pump arrangement up well.

Post by Christopher Tidy
As far as I can tell from the pictures I have, your coolant delivery
system, including the cups, is original. I presume the cups are intended
to even out the flow, so that the coolant isn't supplied in a series of
squirts.

Yes, I'm sure it is original, there's nothing to suggest that anyone has
messed with it. The cups must be to even out the flow, however the lower cup
is on a flexible mount so you can angle the thing in whatever direction you
desire - thus giving the flex delivery pipe an easier time!

I'll let you know how I get on with it.

Cheers Julian.

[Julian]

Post by Julian
I'll let you know how I get on with it.

I modified the pushrod to incorporate a spring link:

Loading Image...

It seems to work fine now. When the pump is priming itself the spring hardly
deflects and full piston travel ensures rapid priming. When coolant reaches
the delivery NRV at the top of the pipe pressure rises and the spring
deflects by about 1cm thus reducing piston stroke. Now I get a good coolant
flow and the little cups don't overflow.

When I'm happy with the design I'll probably loose that cheap galv Screwfix
threaded bar and use something that makes it look a little less codged
together!

I'd still love to take a look at the genuine Wicksteed arrangement though -
maybe I've improved upon the design?

Julian.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian

Post by Julian
I'll let you know how I get on with it.

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/Julian100_01/?action=view¤t=Img0296.jpg

It looks like you've come up with a perfectly functional solution. Just
one more thought, though: is there any chance there was a porous element
of some kind in the top cup, maybe a sponge or a mass of metal wool or
something, to smooth out the flow?

Best wishes,

Chris

[Julian]

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Julian

Post by Julian
I'll let you know how I get on with it.

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/Julian100_01/?action=view¤t=Img0296.jpg

It looks like you've come up with a perfectly functional solution. Just
one more thought, though: is there any chance there was a porous element
of some kind in the top cup, maybe a sponge or a mass of metal wool or
something, to smooth out the flow?

The flow is smooth now, (well enough as makes no odds) I'll see if I can do
a little video of it working this weekend if I find a minute.

Julian.

[Mark Rand]

Post by Julian
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/Julian100_01/?action=view¤t=Img0296.jpg

I would suggest skimming the tramp oil off the top of the suds in there before
too long.


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

[Julian]

Post by Mark Rand

Post by Julian
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/Julian100_01/?action=view¤t=Img0296.jpg

I would suggest skimming the tramp oil off the top of the suds in there before
too long.

Dare I ask why? I thought it made the surface of the coolant look rather
pretty :-)

Julian.

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Christopher Tidy
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/wicksteed.jpg

Looking at that picture more closely I notice what look like tiny oil
pipes on the bowslide. Presumably there's an oil pump somewhere in the
machine?

That picture of yours either shows the ''posh'' version of my model or maybe
a slightly later one, it seems to have an ''autolube'' system similar to a
truck chassis. My saw just has oil holes for an oil can all with nice spring
loaded lids.

Are they just holes, or do the openings go through to a reservoir? My
saw has a hollow bowslide which forms a reservoir holding a couple of
pints of oil. I didn't discover the reservoir until I got a manual.
Probably the Wicksteed is different, but it's just a thought.

Chris

[Julian]

Post by Julian

Post by Christopher Tidy

Post by Christopher Tidy
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/wicksteed.jpg

Looking at that picture more closely I notice what look like tiny oil
pipes on the bowslide. Presumably there's an oil pump somewhere in the
machine?

That picture of yours either shows the ''posh'' version of my model or
maybe a slightly later one, it seems to have an ''autolube'' system
similar to a truck chassis. My saw just has oil holes for an oil can all
with nice spring loaded lids.

Are they just holes, or do the openings go through to a reservoir? My saw
has a hollow bowslide which forms a reservoir holding a couple of pints of
oil. I didn't discover the reservoir until I got a manual. Probably the
Wicksteed is different, but it's just a thought.

You could well be correct, the thought hadn't occurred, I'll have a good
look, cheers.

Julian.

[robert]

replying to Julian, robert wrote:
Hi Julian, I have both a wicksteed power hacksaw like yours, do you know what
the button dose when it is push in on the front of the saw. Thanks Robert

[Christopher Tidy]

Post by Julian
http://photobucket.com/Wicksteed_hacksaw

Incidentally, the two-speed 1 3/4 hp motor on my saw is even bigger than
that. It's all relative :-).

Chris

[bertie]

replying to Julian, bertie wrote:
Hi, Julian, I have a saw the same as yours, can you send some pictures of the
ram that lifts the saw, I think there is something missing on mine. Regards

--
for full context, visit http://www.polytechforum.com/modelengineering/wicksteed-power-hacksaw-9138-.htm